Mike Rowe on Dirty Jobs, Voice/over and more
Mary Windishar
Mike Rowe is a television host, documentary voice, and commercial personality. He's best known as host of Dirty Jobs which was born in San Francisco, when Mike Rowe hosted KPIX TV's Evening Magazine. For this daily magazine show, he created a feature called "Somebody's Gotta Do It," which was the humble beginning of Dirty Jobs. Mike shares the secrets behind the success of this popular Discovery Channel show in this Industry Interview.
Disclaimer: Mary Windishar, a very dignified television producer, working voice/over actor, and IVC co-founder is a giddy Dirty Jobs Fan.
Mike discusses when to abandon technique and believe in your talent and your skill.
When might it be OK to display arrogance? Mike shows how he found success in V/O and on camera, and how to use confidence to one's best advantage.
Mike discusses the value of an "honest" voice, and the unfortunate trend away from that sound.
NEXT MONTH! The Mike Rowe Interview continues...and if you just can't wait, hear about Mike's dream of being on South Park, and how you can help it come come true. Check out... http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/One-Million-and-One-People-Who-Think-Mike-Rowe-Should-Be-on-South-Park/165410906805135
Transcript
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Dirty Jobs -- Mike Shares Why it Works Mary …That was when, forgive the language; I fell in love with you. When you were changing the diapers of the little babies. And the little babies are sitting on the rug and you said, "Oh Chloe..." Mike "Oh, you've been a very bad girl. Look at that." And the little girls are able to, somehow, create a bigger mess than the little boys! And then, they'll applaud themselves. Mary Why we don't rule the world, I don't know! Oh! And the best is when the kids don't play back. Like the soap episode. The daughter of the soap family! You tried, I saw the gears turning, but she was not interested. Mike And that's cool. The good thing though, that the show does, and the biggest hurdle that we've gotten past, you see, 9 out of 10 other shows would cut that weirdness out! We want that weirdness! Mary I love that weirdness! It's why to watch! I mean, I don't know…maybe, if you're a guy, you want to see the caterpillar tractor, and you want to see the big equipment and you want to see the sausages. Mike Of course you want to see the sausages Mary. Mary My son wants to see the sausages! Mike Oh I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Awkward... Mary Yea, but not that awkward. Mike Forgive me. Mary But anyway, I love to watch you interact with those people! This is the producer talking, but that's the magic. Bringing out the best in them. Mike People are endlessly interesting, IF, you don't squeeze them through the filter of broadcast expectations, and let them be who they are. Mary And the lady pulling the foreskin off the geoducks! My favorite thing on the show is to watch... Mike Man you watch a lot of TV Mary! Mary I know, that's really sad. Sorry. But the way that you make everybody you're with, and in particular the "weaker sex" and by that I mean kids, and women, seem so special! I sense you're that way in real life. Mike Well that's nice of you to say. Um, but you have to remember who you're comparing me to. And the incredible fiction that the industry is. I mean, people expect, at least for the first season or two of Dirty Jobs, the guests who welcomed us, did so with kind of with a squint. Mary No kidding! Mike Yea, sure! They were waiting to be the brunt of the joke, they were waiting for the reality show guy to come in and use them as a straight man of sorts. They were ready for the pie in the face. Because that's what TV has trained regular people to expect. And that's what TV does so badly. When we portray regular people, we either turn them into a punch line, or we turn them into a hero. And really, in a lot of ways, that's worse. When you "Cue the cello music, turn on the slow motion." They're both false. Mary Extreme Home Makeover. Mike Right. When you look at "Extreme Home Makeover" you can feel the thumb of manipulation in the small of your back. And they're just pushing! You know, "Move that bus," I know what's behind that bus! I get it! And so the emotion is manufactured and it's hyperbolic. When you look at something on the other extreme, maybe "The Simple Life," that's really all TV knows how to do. And viewers have been trained, very carefully, to expect those kinds of portrayals. They haven't been trained to watch a show, where there's never a second take, where the guy is willing to take the joke on him, and where he's willing to just open his mouth and say the first fool thing that occurs to him. Because the viewer, in the case of "Dirty Jobs" anyway, has given me just absurd permission to try anything. Because they've seen me fail, they know I'm not afraid to look like hell, and, for that, they'll forgive virtually any indiscretion, any bad joke. And so, I have enough rope to sometimes build a bridge, sometimes hang myself. But either way... Mary It works on TV. Mike Good to have rope. Back to production, the enemy of authenticity. You know, it's why when we started shooting "Dirty Jobs" I fought really hard to keep the crew small. Only six or seven of us ever. And when we're actually shooting, four. Mary Oh no kidding! Mike Yeah. And everybody has a camera by the way. Everybody shoots, including me. So anyone on the crew is able to pick up their own camera and shoot anything they want. Because, you don't really know where the story is.
Mary Are you always on a boom microphone? Cause I never see a mic on you. Mike Yea, that's Chris Jones! Chris Jones is our second audio guy, third actually, he's good. He's funny! Everybody on my crew has been with me, almost since the beginning. And they're all, fairly accomplished, Hollywood types. And they're really good at what they do. And they've all stepped back from it. Essentially put their careers on hold to crawl through sewers with me. It's very... Mary I don't think they're putting their careers on hold. Mike I hope not. Mary No. They're not. Someone who is so into, not just the work itself, but into analyzing the work and what makes the work good. And what we're really all about and saying "here's how art fits into real life." That enriches people. Mike Sure, I think so. Mary You're doing that for them. Mike "Dirty Jobs" was a miscalculation. I was trying -- I sat in Silver Spring and Discovery, who I've worked with on and off since 1993, but I went there in 2001 and I pitched them an idea. Basically my idea was this, "You don't need a host, you don't need another expert, enough already. You need a viewer, with access. So give me a camera crew and let me go every other month around the world to Everest or the Titanic or the Pyramids at Giza or cool places and let me be there as a viewer. Not as an expert, and let's do these expeditions that aren't driven by knowledge, but truly by curiosity." So they said, "okay." I thought, I"ve finally got the gig of all gigs. I'm gonna work six months a year and go to every continent. What happened was, they said "We'll do this, but, we need to introduce you around a miniseries. Something we can promote. So, what do you have?" And so I pitched them "Somebody's Gotta Do It." Which is what I was doing here on "Evening Magazine." And they said okay. So we did three hours of that. And they got the numbers back and, uh, that was that. Mary Wow. Mike And that was seven years ago, and I haven't stopped shooting since.
Mike Rowe on When to Abandon Technique in Voice Over Mary In voice over, it's often taught, "think of someone as you're recording." Is there somebody you think of? And I know you do all kinds of voice over, but is there somebody you think of consistently? Mike There was a time…but what you're describing, in my opinion anyway, is a technique. I believe, personally, that the most important part of a technique, and the part that most people aren't really mindful of, is the importance of forgetting it after you've actually mastered it. When you see a really great singer, you don't sit there and observe the beauty in which their diaphragm is functioning, the perfect placement, and all the technical things that they spend years and years mastering. The really great singers master it, and then they forget it. Just like a painter, just like an athlete, and just like voice over. I have a really general sense, I guess I have a notion about who watches the show. But I have no idea who's going to listen to this! And so, you know, I'm talking to you. But I think it would make me crazy, to sit down and narrate an hour of "Planet Earth" and then do an hour of something for NASCAR and then try and really make some sort of distinction between the naturalist on the first show and the NASCAR fan who might listen to the second. Mary It's funny, I'm really surprised to hear you say that! Because you sound so different on "Deadliest Catch" than you do on the "Ford" television commercials, than you do on the "Ford" radio commercials, than you do on the nature shows. How do they sound so different then? Mike I'm not telling you that they don't sound different, I'm saying that if they sound different, it's not because I am imagining a different listener. I look at a script for "Deadliest Catch" and I see that people are going to die. That has an impact. But the truth is, I mean the really ugly truth, is that you don't know if the show is going to be a hit when you sit down and do the first episode. And so you don't put a lot of thought, really, I mean at least I don't, into, "Okay, if this is a hit, seven seasons from now, how do I want to be doing this?" Mary Right.
Mike And so you look at a show, it's about crab fishing, and you know the producer has an idea, the field producer has an idea, the network has an idea and the next thing you know (in a deeper, sultry voice) "You're talking like this." "American Chopper" to your point, this is a funny story. I was sitting in this chair, you know, when we did the very first episode of "American Chopper." This was in 2002. And the producer was in LA and he was on the line, and I didn't know he was on the line. Someone walked in and handed me the script, and it was just a paragraph. And for the mic test, I did just a quick little jokey read, of what was in front of me. Kind of like a bad used car salesman. (In that voice) "The drama, the deadline, the dedication." And then in my cans I hear, "Hey Mike, it's Hank." And I said, "Hey Hank, how are you?" He says, "Good...you know that was great, let's just do one more for a safety!" Mary Oh my God! Mike And I'm like "No no no no no no. Here's what I was thinking we would do with this." And he said, "No, just like that one." So I did my take, the way I wanted to, and of course he used the first one I did. Over 300 episodes later, (in car salesman voice) "I'm still talking like this," and I'm thinking oh crap, you know, had I known! But it just goes to show, you never know. And you can out-think yourself, and out-fox yourself, and get all in your head. You know, if you find yourself in Season 2 of anything, you're lucky. Mary Right. My next question here is, do you have a signature voice, and you've just answered it! Not really. Mike No. The closest thing really, I think, that I've ever done that sounds like me, is either "Dirty Jobs" when I'm just reading the narration, or "Evening Magazine." Where you know it's just that happy guy just telling a friendly tale. That's basically, kinda who I am! But you can get hopelessly lost and go down this rabbit hole of nuance. Mary Analysis. Mike And what's the root word of Analysis? Anal! I think... Mary I noticed, when we first said hello, your voice was really deep. And yet, when you were just explaining how you did "Evening Magazine" or "Dirty Jobs" you really employed your high end. So it's very interesting to see, how you used it! I bet you don't even know you did that. Mike No! Mary Yeah Mike No I didn't. Well you're kinda pretty, and you walked in, and I wasn't sure it was you. So I wanted to, you know, play the cards you got right? Mary Swoooooon. Mike (Deeper) Hello Mary. Mary Yea, well there you have it….
Mike Rowe on Arrogance Mike The network repurposed "Planet Earth" into something called "Planet Earth Extreme" and so I did that. Mary Did they write for you? Mike No Mary Do you re-write the scripts? Mike Yes. Mary Okay, because I'm hearing these things, that only Mike Rowe could say. Mike No, I've embraced just a whole new level of arrogance. I mean, look, I've gotten really fortunate and "Dirty Jobs" has opened a lot of doors, a lot of advertisements, a lot of clients have ideas. And I know you know this, the great tension in the industry is, "Okay, we see this guy, we like this guy, this guy represents our product, this guy talks like our customers want to hear, let's hire this guy." So they hire this guy, and then, you meet the copywriter who works for the account executive and then suddenly they've got this whole playbook of brand expectations. And all of the things that motivated the company to pay the money to hire you suddenly go out the window. Because now, you're brought in to somehow be the wish fulfillment of somebody else's notion. And, there's a point, where it just doesn't make sense to do that anymore. Mary As the performer. Mike I guess! Mary Cause this is all about your arrogance. Mike Yeah. It is. I mean it's...You don't get interesting ever, until you say "no." Ever. In anything. Forget this business. Mary Yeah, that's true. Mike You know, it could be dating, it could be whatever. Until you say no, you know, you're a yes gal. Mary I'm going to put that a different way. 'Cause I teach a lot of people who are just getting into voice over. One of the hardest things to get across is, you have to be yourself. That there's no way -- I mean, I'll tell you what -- I'm better than Meryl Streep in one way. I can play Mary Windishar better than she can. Mike Right. You own that. Mary Right. And you said you have new found arrogance? I would like to tell you something. I just watched the stuff you did for QVC. There with your singing-Frank-Sinatra's-song-self, and talking to your off camera producer, who you say is sleeping…you're still Mike Rowe. You're still the guy we see on "Dirty Jobs." And I think that QVC stuff was relatively early in your career. Mike It was the first thing. Mary Okay, so, what'd your mom do right? How did you know you had something to offer? How'd you know? Mike I didn't. I mean... Mary So far you've said, "I'm lucky; I can't do plumbing." Where does the confidence come from? Mike Uh, I'm 48. Mary I'm old! Mike I mean... Mary No, but you had confidence at QVC. Mike I did, but look, understand that, again, I'm competing and I've competed for 16 years. Freelancing and broadcasting, with an entirely different playbook than anybody I ever auditioned against. I got in the business because I had a model in my mind. And the model was, I wanna work when I feel like it, I want 6 months off a year, and I don't care too much about the money, I'd like to have enough, and I don't care at all about the fame. Unless it leads to more things that sustain the model that I wanted. And the hell of it is, is that I succeeded. QVC, although I use it as the brunt of almost every broadcasting joke I tell, was actually the best training anybody could've ever had. And everything I needed to learn, in broadcasting, I learned at QVC. Probably in the first year. Why did I stay for 3 years? That involves a model of a different definition. But the point is, when I finally got out of QVC, and went to Hollywood, I was a mercenary. I knew exactly how to get cast, I knew who I was on live TV, I knew who I was on tape, I knew how to talk, I knew how to write, I knew how to produce and I knew how to direct. Mary And you knew from doing it. Mike I knew from doing it. Mary That's nice. Mike I figured it out from midnight to three every night. And so, my model was "look for those projects that are so inconceivably bad, so hopelessly conceived, that they are doomed. That no amount of luck or talent could possibly save them." I would attach myself to those, I would do yeoman's work, I'd get paid, and three months later, the whole thing would crap the bed, and I'd be off for three months! And for me it was brilliant. Because I wasn't looking to hit it out of the park! I was looking for singles. Mary So, now I just found a really interesting thing about Mike Rowe! You're lazy! Mike Yeah. Yeah, you know what? Well that's what I meant before when I confessed to being 48 and old enough to handle the good fortune and the notoriety. Because I was used to chasing down the anonymity. Frankly. And "Dirty Jobs" was a miscalculation! So yeah, I was kind of lazy in a very specific way. But then I got old enough to say, you know, these are great cards. And this is a fun show. And it was a tribute to my grand-dad to start with, so why stop? And so, we haven't stopped. And so now I'm up to my neck in irony. Because the lazy guy that had the model that he had figured out, has now gotten filthy in every state.
Why Honest Voices are Valuable Mike I was a pretty good impersonator, so I would imitate that voice. Mary …the infomercial voice. Mike Sure! I would just do that all day long. Now I wouldn't do that today, but, that doesn't have anything to do with, "Oh no no no, I don't do that anymore." It has nothing to do with that. It's not that at all. It's just that, you're either anonymous or you're all in! And it's not, "Hey that guy sounds like such-and-such," it's like "whoa, that guy sounds like Mike Rowe, and he's actually telling me something." I think people get screwed when they get caught in the middle. And when they wind up thinking that their work will define them. And the first example, as themselves, or when they ignore the importance of being themselves and think they're in some anonymous world again. You get killed doing that too. I've gotten killed doing both. And that's why before, we were talking about context, that's really the thing. You have to know who you are and who you're talking to. And that's what I meant before when we were talking about "Why does TV do such a crappy job of portraying regular people?" It's because they gravitate towards the extremes they know. A hero, or a clown. And in VO (voice over) it's the same thing except the paradigms are a little different. You gravitate either toward the perfect (smooth, credible read), which is fake, OR warts and all. Which is also fake! Affected, and not authentic, and false. But we're so used to it, and we've rewarded it, both as listeners/consumers and producers, that we don't really spend too much time agonizing over it. It would drive us crazy! Mary But the truly successful people who get booked over and over and over again, are the ones who have found... Mike That's right. It's a short list. Look at Peter Coyote. That's not a voice you immediately hear, and go "Wow, that's powerful." But it's awfully interesting. And the more you listen to it, the more interesting it is. And I was a fan of his voice work before I really knew it was him! Mary The thing about him is when you said "Peter Coyote," you can hear that voice in your head. Mike Right away. Mary That's, like you said, not this gorgeous, modulated voice. It's got this edge on it. Mike I'm suspicious of good voices. Mary The whole epiphany I had about this question of imperfection was, with concatenated voices and mechanical voices, we're not going to trust anything without a vulnerability. Because we're going to think it's not even really a human being talking to us anymore. So we're heading in that direction; we'll be going that way for a while before we do what your crystal ball said. Which is to come back. Mike I believe you're right. And look, again, this isn't...there are no new ideas. And, really, what we're talking about is the difference between efficiency and effectiveness. And right now, the world is in love with efficiency. And we are in love with it because it affects the bottom line in a more immediate way. Huxley said, "The greatest threat to freedom is total anarchy. But the second greatest threat is total efficiency." Because efficiency... Mary He's Brave New World right? Mike Yeah! And taken to its extreme, we're robots! We will become robots. We'll sound like them, we'll function like them. In VO, and in acting, and in business. Being effective is something you want to be. And that means there's no extra credit for going too far in either direction. Be effective. So effectiveness will come back around. I think. Sooner or later. Right now, we're in love with efficiency and we're paying for it.
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